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Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

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Should the TEC use a lag out formula

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Total Votes : 89

Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 13:32

Think about the teams who actually wanna try compete for something but don't have the pace. That's why the lagout rule is kinda crap personally but again, it's what the community wants. It's not their fault people have lagged out but they're the ones that seem to have no gain from it. My team has had bad luck in the past but we didn't complain about lagging out twice at Watkins and getting a crap result from it but we just got on with it. The B lobby teams won't get a chance which is why I think it's good that you guys are considering another championship for this stuff. You have shown no sympathy to the teams who have actually struggled to get decent results or a team in for that matter. Tbh, if you don't do that, then TORA is gonna turn into a HCR, LMR, F4H etc fest again and all the other teams may as well go somewhere else. You may say it's only a tag at the start of your name but when there's teams that have 4 or 5 people in and have no chance to get anywhere, they may as well build there team up somewhere else, which is what my team are in the process of doing cause we can't build it up here and the ideas that were suggested for helping smaller teams have been rejected...

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by CAR Zermatt on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 13:51

That's an interesting post.

It's difficult to help slower teams, as its a racing game, a test of speed. 'Judge on ability' in your signature, alas you are suggesting a bias approach towards the slower teams. It's entertaining you think you have to take your business elsewhere because you cannot win, yet you were not bothered about lagging out.

This is a competition, but it's also a mass participation event. As mentioned it's not anyone's fault if an individual lags out and for the purposes of keeping competition alive and involving the rest of the team members, this lag out rule needs to occur and not favour anyone. What you are hoping for is that the fast guys lag out so you can get a better result. Not great sportsmanship if you ask me.

15 miles is way too much. The idea if this is to keep teams involved in the positions they were racing for. Just because they lagged out through no fault of their own should this opportunity be taken away from them. It's completely different from crashing the car. Therefore this rule needs to be less harsh.

Take Bathurst for an example. 1st place stint was around 185m. These percentages that are thrown around like 70% distance, 80% distance are ridiculous. That's a 55.5m and 37m punishment respectively. Insurmountable. Think involvement, think maintaining competition. 5% is more like the number you should be looking at. that's still 9.25m, over 2 laps punishment through something out of your control.

Plenty harsh that in my opinion.



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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:08

Fair enough mate. I would rather help out teams who are low on numbers, rather than the more established ones tbh since TORA is more likely to grow with more teams in if we help of the "smaller" teams.
The motto was from 2 or 3 years ago when I was judged as a bad driver from the age I was. I'm still not a good driver now Razz
The hoping guys lag out part is wrong cause I would rather win fairly. I'm just looking at it from someone who would be in B lobby's perspective.
As for the lag out bit, the gap was massive between first and last so the misfortunes of others can benefit the guys in B lobby, which is what's happened in the past so I don't get why this is suddenly an issue now. It's crap when you lag out but [Censored] happens. Everyone has their own opinion though Smile

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Solar on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:08

xebot360 wrote:Think about the teams who actually wanna try compete for something but don't have the pace. That's why the lagout rule is kinda crap personally but again, it's what the community wants. It's not their fault people have lagged out but they're the ones that seem to have no gain from it. My team has had bad luck in the past but we didn't complain about lagging out twice at Watkins and getting a crap result from it but we just got on with it. The B lobby teams won't get a chance which is why I think it's good that you guys are considering another championship for this stuff. You have shown no sympathy to the teams who have actually struggled to get decent results or a team in for that matter. Tbh, if you don't do that, then TORA is gonna turn into a HCR, LMR, F4H etc fest again and all the other teams may as well go somewhere else. You may say it's only a tag at the start of your name but when there's teams that have 4 or 5 people in and have no chance to get anywhere, they may as well build there team up somewhere else, which is what my team are in the process of doing cause we can't build it up here and the ideas that were suggested for helping smaller teams have been rejected...

Teams that want to compete?, if people are gonna be bashing the Big Teams once again, because a Lagout rule that Helps EVEYRBODY out, then im done with this Community, alls i see is HCR this F4H That LMR that, its not our fault that we have maybe put more graft into our Race Craft, Our Tunes, Our Lap Times, just because others can not match the pace of others, dont get disheartened look at Harmonic and Zermatt, Amarth and b0x they smashed my Laptime at Bathurst, did i start whining no? i use that as Reason to keep improving on this game, if you people dont have that mentality then why are you even doing competitive Racing on a Site? we all want Results but if your not willing to Improve then you may aswell go do Publics in my Opinion.




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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:11

HCR Solar wrote:
xebot360 wrote:Think about the teams who actually wanna try compete for something but don't have the pace. That's why the lagout rule is kinda crap personally but again, it's what the community wants. It's not their fault people have lagged out but they're the ones that seem to have no gain from it. My team has had bad luck in the past but we didn't complain about lagging out twice at Watkins and getting a crap result from it but we just got on with it. The B lobby teams won't get a chance which is why I think it's good that you guys are considering another championship for this stuff. You have shown no sympathy to the teams who have actually struggled to get decent results or a team in for that matter. Tbh, if you don't do that, then TORA is gonna turn into a HCR, LMR, F4H etc fest again and all the other teams may as well go somewhere else. You may say it's only a tag at the start of your name but when there's teams that have 4 or 5 people in and have no chance to get anywhere, they may as well build there team up somewhere else, which is what my team are in the process of doing cause we can't build it up here and the ideas that were suggested for helping smaller teams have been rejected...

Teams that want to compete?, if people are gonna be bashing the Big Teams once again, because a Lagout rule that Helps EVEYRBODY out, then im done with this Community, alls i see is HCR this F4H That LMR that, its not our fault that we have maybe put more graft into our Race Craft, Our Tunes, Our Lap Times, just because others can not match the pace of others, dont get disheartened look at Harmonic and Zermatt, Amarth and b0x they smashed my Laptime at Bathurst, did i start whining no? i use that as Reason to keep improving on this game, if you people dont have that mentality then why are you even doing competitive Racing on a Site? we all want Results but if your not willing to Improve then you may aswell go do Publics in my Opinion.

It's not even about the mentality mate, it's more the numbers than anything. You guys have roughly 30 members, which for us to do that now, would be difficult as hell considering there's other teams trying to do the same. I would happily compete with you guys, just we don't have the members to do so, which is why I said TORA needs to help out the smaller teams.

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Speed Dem0n 64 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:12

The lag out rule initially sounds like a great idea. But having read through this thread I have found that it should not be implemented. As this rule is only being considered because a couple of top teams lagged out in the Bathurst 12hrs endurance race. Nobody was pushing for this rule when the smaller/slower teams lagged out in the earlier endurance races. And the "top" teams only want this rule so that they can get what they feel they deserve. They feel that a lag out is unfair and don't want to feel the effect of it. But sometimes life isn't fair, and sometimes you will spends hundreds of hours on something and receive nothing for it. But that's just how life works. So I personally believe that these people should grow up and learn to have fun. It would be an injustice for a team that lagged out to score more miles in a stint than a team that completed the stint. I'm not saying that is definitely going to happen, but if it does then TORA as a site would have to seriously have to consider what it has become. It would have become a site whereby the "top" teams have used their political power (as they are trying to do) to have the rules there way. Turning the site elitist, which will be the end of the site as it was for TURN. This post is only meant to serve as a warning for what could come, not a catalyst for an argument.

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Bellmond on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:15

Id just like to know what an 'Elite' team is.

A team is a team.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:18

HCR Bellmond wrote:Id just like to know what an 'Elite' team is.

A team is a team.

You should know mate Wink

I'm just saying, if I asked people to name teams out of here, those teams would more than likely be HCR, LMR and F4H. None of the "smaller" teams are well known, meaning they have a lot less chance at growing, meaning the less TORA is likely to grow as a whole

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Solar on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:18

We had no Complaints when there was a Lagout formula for Daytona if i remember, they only stopped it as putting the data in took to long i believe (Correct me if im wrong) but now we are trying to have 1 put another 1 in whith is better, theres Massive Debates?


@xebot so by helping out Smaller Teams do you mean give them a Better result just cause there a Smaller team? Look at HCR for example when i joined we had like 6-7 members and we didnt complain at been a small team, we got on with it and grew as a Team, been a Small Team has nothing to do with this Lagout Rule, its just because people want a Better Result.




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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by CAR Zermatt on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:20

'grow up and learn to have fun'

You play racing games to have fun and compete. Competition is fun. If you don't implement this rule then because of one person's lag out, through no fault of their own, you take away an entire team's 'fun'.. Therefore lag out rule. This rule accommodates and attempts to include everyone, equally. Not sure what elitist qualities that has inspired for you.

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:21

HCR Solar wrote:We had no Complaints when there was a Lagout formula for Daytona if i remember, they only stopped it as putting the data in took to long i believe (Correct me if im wrong) but now we are trying to have 1 put another 1 in whith is better, theres Massive Debates?


@xebot so by helping out Smaller Teams do you mean give them a Better result just cause there a Smaller team? Look at HCR for example when i joined we had like 6-7 members and we didnt complain at been a small team, we got on with it and grew as a Team, been a Small Team has nothing to do with this Lagout Rule, its just because people want a Better Result.

Nah. What I mean is, try help them to grow inside of TORA. Not by giving them better results or anything, just do something to help cause it will help this site grow as a whole. We're currently building our team outside of TORA and while that's gonna bring a couple of members in, most of them are happy doing races outside of it, which is not ideal for TORA

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by CAR Zermatt on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:22

Sounds like you are pretty big time.

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Bellmond on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:22

xebot360 wrote:
HCR Bellmond wrote:Id just like to know what an 'Elite' team is.

A team is a team.

You should know mate Wink

I'm just saying, if I asked people to name teams out of here, those teams would more than likely be HCR, LMR and F4H. None of the "smaller" teams are well known, meaning they have a lot less chance at growing, meaning the less TORA is likely to grow as a whole

Al take that as a compliment!

But what about others in the team?? I'm certainly not one of the top drivers and there are plenty in HCR who would honestly say they are slower.

Size does not mean speed. Practice and effort do!

To me thats not elite
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:24

HCR Bellmond wrote:
xebot360 wrote:
HCR Bellmond wrote:Id just like to know what an 'Elite' team is.

A team is a team.

You should know mate Wink

I'm just saying, if I asked people to name teams out of here, those teams would more than likely be HCR, LMR and F4H. None of the "smaller" teams are well known, meaning they have a lot less chance at growing, meaning the less TORA is likely to grow as a whole

Al take that as a compliment!

But what about others in the team?? I'm certainly not one of the top drivers and there are plenty in HCR who would honestly say they are slower.

Size does not mean speed. Practice and effort do!

To me thats not elite

That's fair enough dude. Just trying to say that those teams have got a good rep away from TORA whereas others haven't as much so you guys are more likely to grow than the teams that aren't as well known Smile

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by CAR Zermatt on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:25

Anyway, two thirds of people have voted for a rule to be implemented. My proposed rule is:

Predicted mileage that stint (calculated by miles when lagged out vs time left in stint) - 5% of that distance.

As previously stated this still impacts teams pretty hard, but gives them the opportunity to keep racing around the people they were before.

Maintains participation, still punishes. If someone would like to tell me whats wrong with that i'd welcome the chance to explain further.

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:28

Plus you can't judge everyone on their team prefix ,I am F4H yes but am I a top runner ...... no let's not be silly I'm mid pack at best .
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Solar on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:28

i still dont know what the Lagout Rule has to do with Smaller Teams, ya saying ya want TORA to help you grow? only reason Teams like HCR LMR and F4H are more recognizable is cause we Win Series and Races. we just keep going around in Circles just let the Staff Handle it and let the Votes do the talking.




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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by xebot360 on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 14:39

I'm sorry but you guys have a good rep. Smaller teams won't have so they won't grow as much. It's not about individuals in your teams, it's about you guys as a whole having a good rep so what Im saying is, if we helped the smaller teams grow to a decent point, then TORA will grow.

The lag out rule part was me basically saying that no one in B lobby will move up (depending on pace) due to it, which has been said already by a few people

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Motorhead on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 15:30

xebot360 wrote:I'm sorry but you guys have a good rep. Smaller teams won't have so they won't grow as much. It's not about individuals in your teams, it's about you guys as a whole having a good rep so what Im saying is, if we helped the smaller teams grow to a decent point, then TORA will grow.

The lag out rule part was me basically saying that no one in B lobby will move up (depending on pace) due to it, which has been said already by a few people

HCR have good rep? lol! We'll definitely take that one!

It's a tricky one because in everything you have high flyers and lower order runners. I mean, it's not often that a team like Leicester win the Premier League but it's happened. And there will be underdog stories here of course.

I can understand questions about the rule but as you can see when TJ ran some calculations on the method he was constructing, it still really hurts to lag out. The only thing is that faster cars will have more ability to catch up to the pack and overtake others just like they will have the ability to pull away in normal running. And the F4H entry that lagged out will have needed 5 flawless stints where they match the LMR Red Dragon team just to get NEAR the top 10. That sounds like a good place to start from. Especially as we're considering this with the long term in mind. Remember that these enduros this season and onwards next year when they'll be even bigger, are part of championships so EVERYONE will fight for 25th as much as they fight for 10th or 1st!


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Bellmond on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 15:59

HCR Motorhead wrote: HCR have good rep? lol! We'll definitely take that one!


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 16:01

Look when we talk "top team" Let's not forget b0x ,Zermatt and Amarth ? These guys now rep EsportsandCars and that's the kind of exposure we need here.

Also LRT one of the smallest teams in organised racing at 6 drivers I believe .
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Hakkinen on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 17:36

The only reason this vote for a change to the rules wasn't brought in earlier in the season was because no one wanted to speak up about it.. It's not to only benefit the "top" teams.





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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 18:59

HCR Solar wrote:We had no Complaints when there was a Lagout formula for Daytona if i remember, they only stopped it as putting the data in took to long i believe (Correct me if im wrong) but now we are trying to have 1 put  another 1 in whith is better, theres Massive Debates?

We had nothing but complaints at Daytona, so you must be remembering incorrectly.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 19:05

LMR Minardi wrote:The only reason this vote for a change to the rules wasn't brought in earlier in the season was because no one wanted to speak up about it.. It's not to only benefit the "top" teams.

I actually brought this up before 2016 started and the staff didn't want to entertain it. Believe me, I've brought it up many times and brought up again after Bathurst.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Tue 16 Aug 2016 - 19:06

LMR Minardi wrote:The only reason this vote for a change to the rules wasn't brought in earlier in the season was because no one wanted to speak up about it.. It's not to only benefit the "top" teams.

^
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