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Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

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Should the TEC use a lag out formula

63% 63% 
[ 56 ]
30% 30% 
[ 27 ]
7% 7% 
[ 6 ]
 
Total Votes : 89

Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Xyloto on Tue 9 Aug 2016 - 21:20

F4H Chrisupra wrote:

What is Q1 and Q2?

The average of 2 driver's Qually times, to get the final qually time, I do believe.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Diablo on Tue 9 Aug 2016 - 21:40

That's correct.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Tue 9 Aug 2016 - 21:51

Yeah that would be good. I think the percentage should be adjusted depending on when they lagout though which I know they've discussed privately. It wouldn't be fair to penalize someone 10 miles who lagged out with 15 to go as someone who lagged out 5 minutes into the stint so yeah, early lagout = 93% and later lagouts could be 96/97% or something. I like what BigBen proposed also. I thought that was nifty.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by ErebusV8 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 0:48

NO
Why you ask?
TORA is supposed to be As Real As It Gets. pretty sure the Toyota at Le Mans broke down with 4 minutes left and then finished last, it didn't get a formula to get it across the line in any sort of position...


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by MAB170294 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 1:13

I too dont agree with a a formula, as a lag out can happen to anyone and if you decide to quit cus 1 driver lagged out then your obviously not a real team, if a team in a real endurance race loses x ampunt of laps in the pits you dont see them quiting they carry on as it could happen to everyone else. Also if it is implemented it should penalise them across all lobbies not just their lobby otherwise you to make it fair the points should be based by lobby so the winner in each lobby gets the same points and so on





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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Diablo on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 1:15

This is what I wrote in the dev section, still holds relevancy here.

@MAB- see second paragraph of my quoted section, it responds to your post perfectly.

F4H Diablo wrote:
My rationale is as follows:

1) Realism: "As real as it gets" is TORA's tagline. I get the idea of simulating an endurance race to the best of our ability with Forza 6. One can see a lagout as a mechanical failure. However, many lagouts are the fault of T10 and their faulty servers (not all, but many). This is something that cannot be controlled unless your internet connection is shoddy, which some people do have. However, if you want to stick to absolute realism, then all team entries need to be locked to 3 drivers for 12 and 24 events, and 2 for 6 hour events, because that is how the FIA does it. All assists not used by real race car drivers, such as the racing line and "normal" steering, as well as camera angles apart from cockpit view, should've been forced off. Don't agree with this? Then the argument for "realism" isn't applicable. We adapt the rules BASED on real events so that it creates the optimal experience for us, the racers.

2) Realism Part 2: We are not paid professionals. Real racers are paid. We do not get a prize for winning an event such as the 12 Hours of Bathurst other than a neat little banner, some pride, and some satisfaction. Under the current rule set, once a team lags out, there is no motivation to continue. They aren't competing for any part of a purse, entry fee collection, etc.. They are getting 100% diddly squat. After I lagged out, I was asked if I would be starting stint 2. I said no, and my reason is not because I was upset about lagging out. It was because I would likely start 4th, make my way to 2nd by T2, and be racing with drivers that were far ahead of me in distance. In a real race, I would've been blue flagged from the start. What if I had caused an accident that took out multiple drivers? It would've been on me because I shouldn't have been there in the first place. In fact, I could have gone back out and let our (F4H) sister car get ahead and just be an extra car in the way so that they could get as far ahead as possible. If I was running race pace, this is perfectly fine by TORA rules, as long as I am not blocking. Under "realistic" racing rules (Blue Flag), I would have pulled over for everyone, and hotlapped. To avoid this, instead of being a nuisance, I pulled our car, out of respect for the other teams still competing. Again, you cannot make the realism argument when you are picking and choosing which parts of the "realism" aspect you want to replicate.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Hailfire97x on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 1:45

ErebusV8 wrote:NO
Why you ask?
TORA is supposed to be As Real As It Gets. pretty sure the Toyota at Le Mans broke down with 4 minutes left and then finished last, it didn't get a formula to get it across the line in any sort of position...


But Brad, we're supposed to feel bad for Toyota because they spent soooo much time and effort only to have a mechanical failure. Being the "spiritual winners" isn't enough; we have to hand them the trophy anyways!
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Diablo on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 2:35

Hailfire97x wrote:
ErebusV8 wrote:NO
Why you ask?
TORA is supposed to be As Real As It Gets. pretty sure the Toyota at Le Mans broke down with 4 minutes left and then finished last, it didn't get a formula to get it across the line in any sort of position...


But Brad, we're supposed to feel bad for Toyota because they spent soooo much time and effort only to have a mechanical failure. Being the "spiritual winners" isn't enough; we have to hand them the trophy anyways!

Why don't you try to add some meaningful discussion instead of posting this thinly-veiled sarcastic jab? Instead of wasting everyone's time by posting said remark, you could have easily taken an extra 5 minutes and posted a thought-out response in opposition. That would've been fine.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when you decide to be a troll, you lose all legitimacy. As a long-standing member of TORA, you should be above that.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 3:30

F4H Diablo wrote:

2) Realism Part 2: We are not paid professionals. Real racers are paid.

At LeMans? very few are paid, most "pay" to be there, or have a sponsor to cover their share of the team's operating expenditures.

And if you think Audi, Toyota and Porsche's LMP efforts turn any "profit" via their performance at LeMans, you've failed "Racing Economics 101". They spend billions for the chance to win a trophy, some watches, and the bragging rights of winning.

At least "we" don't have to come up with six figure checks for the chance to compete.


Last edited by Flyin Mikey J on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 3:41; edited 1 time in total


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 3:38

F4H Diablo wrote:
Hailfire97x wrote:
ErebusV8 wrote:NO
Why you ask?
TORA is supposed to be As Real As It Gets. pretty sure the Toyota at Le Mans broke down with 4 minutes left and then finished last, it didn't get a formula to get it across the line in any sort of position...


But Brad, we're supposed to feel bad for Toyota because they spent soooo much time and effort only to have a mechanical failure. Being the "spiritual winners" isn't enough; we have to hand them the trophy anyways!

Why don't you try to add some meaningful discussion instead of posting this thinly-veiled sarcastic jab? Instead of wasting everyone's time by posting said remark, you could have easily taken an extra 5 minutes and posted a thought-out response in opposition. That would've been fine.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when you decide to be a troll, you lose all legitimacy. As a long-standing member of TORA, you should be above that.

I have a feeling that you're not going to be happy with any opposing viewpoint on this subject, regardless of how succinct or long-winded their post is. The name calling (Troll) is further evidence of this.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Motorhead on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 3:52

We do have to purchase the console, the game, and optional equipment like wheels. It's not cheap.

Sure, people can take this as seriously as they want, but at the end of the day we can't dot every i and cross every t in every iteration of "simulation". I'm all for a lagout rule as long as it isn't generous like TURN's was.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Solar on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:12

i just believe people should have an opinion without been a Douche about it. guess some people cant help them selves, i generally dont care about the Lag Out rule, it helps everyone out but also has the affect off someone could beat me even if they lagged out.

I lagged out after putting 10 hrs into 12 hr of sebring and Lost 2nd Place, Yes i was Salty, but yano, a Lag Out rule may of atleast gave me something to make me feel a bit better about what i did that Day, but No i got completely shafted and dropped from 2nd overall to like 10th, so yeah. my 2p.




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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Diablo on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:23

I am more than willing to debate an opposing view point, but it should be substantiated with reasoning.

Hailfire was being a troll, so I said something about it. He's been here a long time and he should know better than that. Doesn't matter who it happened to be, no need to troll on forums. In fact, your message to me is nitpicking my point and getting away from the bigger picture.

Mike- you raise a fair point about the economics of racing, but is it not true that racers such as Benoit Treluyer and Mark Webber are paid to drive race cars? Even for the Am drivers, you could argue that racing is their primary occupation?

To wrap this around, racing on Forza is a hobby for all of us, not a job. I work 45-50 hours a week and do this in my spare time. I do get what you're saying about the realism aspect, comparing a lagout to a mechanical DNF. But for the reasons I've already posted, I still believe some sort of lagout rule should be in place, albeit following James' suggestion that it not be so generous as the rule used in TURN VEC.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Venom on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:34

Let's be honest and use some common sense here. A lagout is nothing like a mechanical dnf. How you argue that is beyond me lol. To those saying no lag out rule lets go sim, i hope you lag out of all your stints. I really do. Why should my car be behind by a ridiculous amount because turn 10 servers can't provide a constant connection to everyone? Lagouts should not drive teams away from finishing the race. And If you take advantage of the lagout rule you're a scumbag and why are you here in the first place?
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Om3ga73 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:49

F4H Diablo wrote:
Under the current rule set, once a team lags out, there is no motivation to continue. They aren't competing for any part of a purse, entry fee collection, etc.. They are getting 100% diddly squat.

F4H Diablo wrote:
To wrap this around, racing on Forza is a hobby for all of us, not a job.

I get the argument for pulling the car to avoid potentially hurting another team's race while not being in it yourself. And I get that teams like F4H are competing to win, not come second.

However, I think it's unfair to paint all of us with that brush. Racing at TORA is a hobby for me and personally, I'm thrilled just to take part and finish my stints somewhere in the middle of the lower lobbies regardless of where the car is in live timing. I'm not a top tier driver here. My motivation to continue is that I am enjoying myself and my hobby.

I'm not trying to argue against you here, i actually agree with most of your points. I just think it's worth pointing out that not all of us are coming at this from an F4H perspective and that can make a difference.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:55

Unframe wrote: Lagouts should not drive teams away from finishing the race.

Press on regardless. Just because you lag out of a stint, there's no reason not to carry on. It's a long race, things can happen, there's lots of time to make up for a bad stint, even a lagout.

And If you take advantage of the lagout rule you're a scumbag and why are you here in the first place?

Really? I am a scumbag? I spend more hours for this site than you do finding advantages on the track. Yet, if your team quits after a stint one lagout, I will gladly finish way ahead of you in the final results.



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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Venom on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 4:56

I don't really see this as a "F4H Perspective" but more as a fair perspective. Everybody deserves the same fairness as the next and lagouts go completely against what we are all here for. I'd rather have to work my way up the grid then be handed positions. You have literally no control of a lagout. Your connection can be great and the server can still give out on you. The least that can happen is fair compensation
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Xyloto on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:00

Flyin Mikey J wrote:
Unframe wrote: Lagouts should not drive teams away from finishing the race.

Press on regardless. Just because you lag out of a stint, there's no reason not to carry on. It's a long race, things can happen, there's lots of time to make up for a bad stint, even a lagout.

And If you take advantage of the lagout rule you're a scumbag and why are you here in the first place?

Really? I am a scumbag? I spend more hours for this site than you do finding advantages on the track. Yet, if your team quits after a stint one lagout, I will gladly finish way ahead of you in the final results.


I think you missed Frame's point? He's calling someone who would take advantage of a lag out rule, i.e. Someone quitting out to gain mileage a scumbag.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Venom on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:00

I think you're coming at the wrong person with the exploiting argument pal. I never named anyone to take advantage of the rule. But you seem to have a guilty conscience and the boot seems to fit pretty nice. I thought i was speaking for everyone here that there was a really low possibility teams would take advantage of the rule but thanks for saying otherwise. And cheating is a scumbag move and if you want to justify it as not then lol
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Motorhead on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:03

Let's try to keep the decorum.

The vote does look like it's mostly going one way but it shouldn't be a cause for division. People worrying or even expecting that if this is passed and implemented that it will keep top x teams in the top x should probably think otherwise. It will be so any entrant that falls foul of lag will not end up languishing 100 miles from anything. And that it will give everyone the opportunity to still race for something even despite the knock back.

We should think in the extra long run, these enduros are not just single massive premier events; they are also part of a large championship. So any team worth their karats will fight for 20th after a knock back as much as they would at the pointy end of the grid. And I really see why some teams are disheartened when they're destined to be 50th and only profit on others' equal or worse demises. That's why I think the concept is something that we can work on to be balanced and fair and if it's what the community want then we can make something really proper.



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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:04

Guys all just chill ,a lag-out rule will help everyone .
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by TechnologicMau5 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:10

This is Forza. This is far from realism. We're supposed to be here to have fun. A lagout rule keeps some spirit of competition alive. The spirit of competition is why we're all here. Therefore, a lagout rule is in everyone's best interest.

I can see where the "you should carry on for the sake of finishing the race" argument comes from. I have never once quit out of a race early, it's a principle of mine, but this is virtual racing on a game that can be classified as "sim-cade" at best. If my team loses 100 miles to a lagout, I've got better things to do with my time.

As stated many times before: The formula will be weighted so it can't be abused, but will save you from suddenly having to make up 100 miles.

To be frank, I see the toxicity that has floated around our community recently is the biggest threat to the success and sanctity of TORA. Can we please just grow up and get over all this bitterness? We can't always have everything our own way. Just lighten up already, and race to have fun. Smile








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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 5:22

I just want to bring something up quickly for example this is by no means what we are doing but it gets the point across .

Team in 1st lags out they cover 200 miles per stint prior to this.
Team in 20th lags out they cover 190 miles per stint prior to this.

The lag rule awards 170 miles to both these teams who is better off ?
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by MAB170294 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 9:33

I think no matter how you phrased it this subject was always going to polorize the community as for the people who cant reach a lobby can sometimes feel left out, for example its always A lobby gets streamed when there might actually be better racing elsewhere. But if it is implimemted maybe use a similair idea to turns and say you get 2 laps less than the bottom car overall not just their lobby





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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by ErebusV8 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 10:38

Thank you Mark, that last part is absolutely the best way this can possibly work.

in TCC, GT, ISCC or whatever series, if you disconnect you come last overall, not just your lobby, so why not do it with this too? It only makes sense, two laps down on last in lowest lobby is the fairest way to do it. Obviously, if multiple teams lag out then it'd be first lag out last, last lag out first (because first lag our obviously covers less distance than the last one)


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