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Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

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Should the TEC use a lag out formula

63% 63% 
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Total Votes : 89

Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 10:53

Tell me where we have said last in A lobby ? This is about keeping cars in the race if you lose 100 miles for a disconnect that puts you 100 miles behind B lobby correct ? What we want to do is keep cars within striking distance so it's worth pushing on to make places back up ,last thing on someone's mind is going to be right I'm 100 miles behind the nearest car let's try and catch them because it's impossible unless everyone suffers a lagout right ?
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by MAB170294 on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 11:14

I only put that bit in as the tirn rules state last in lobby  so was making  sure i got my view across correctly. And tbf it wouldve cost in bathurst stint 1 an a lobby front runner just under 20 miles which i personally think is fair but im guessin a few would say its too much





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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by ROSCOEpCOTRAIN on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 15:49

"most" lagouts are caused by each persons compatibility with online severs....
my teams all do a check list 30 mins before there stint to ensure we minimize our lagout chances.
look at nein shiza in the results...we are that high in points not because of pace but CONSISTANCY.... endurance racing is about consistency... if a car lags out it should not finish ahead of teams who did not... just my opinion... either way we will be there ready to take on the best in sim racing


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by LRT Breeze on Wed 10 Aug 2016 - 20:03

Just do what they have done in VEC. Works well in my opinion.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Bellmond on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 0:24

The thoughts are the system used on TURN was a little too generous and open to abuse.

At one point at Silverstone it crossed my mind that if I 'lagged out' I would actually cover more miles due to me having an accident earlier on in the race. Obviously I didnt do this, however after the race reflecting on it further I did realise it was actually quite a big issue with the formula.

We will take our time with this to get it right, it will be done in an open manner and all suggestions are welcome.

I know this topic has become heated and understand the reasons why but lets all just try and get along and do what's fair and right.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR generaltso on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 2:05

hailfires snarky remark actually brings up a good point if someone lags out in the final minutes.

if distance traveled prior to lagout is more than the distance of the formula would have given them... they should be awarded the furthest distance.

also should create "lag out racing" where 2-3 "people" apply to the races for the rest of the season and then "lag out" at various points to test formulas and see where it places them. just crunch numbers until you come up with something.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 3:11

I can assure you that the staff and development team have considered and thought of every scenario. There is 10+ brains at work in the background. I have to say, some very smart ideas have been brought up that tick all the boxes. Valid points are being brought up publicly and it's all being discussed. I think everyone will be happy with the outcome.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by LRT Breeze on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 17:08

I only say use TURNs because its helped my team in the past with LambChops dodgy connection. I do know it can be abused at points, but aint we all gotta trust people in these not to cheat? This is supposed to be where the big names come. Either outcome im sure it will be the correct one, i speak for my team when i say all we want is to not be 100% out the running of we get lagged out.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Vice255 on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 17:12

I think if we were to do it we have to deduct at least a lap off of what they would have ran. This way it discourages drivers from just blatantly leaving and saying that they lagged out when they really didn't. Teams have come back from a lap down before in the WEC, IMSA, etc. to win before...

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Motorhead on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 19:05

LRT Breeze wrote:I only say use TURNs because its helped my team in the past with LambChops dodgy connection. I do know it can be abused at points, but aint we all gotta trust people in these not to cheat? This is supposed to be where the big names come. Either outcome im sure it will be the correct one, i speak for my team when i say all we want is to not be 100% out the running of we get lagged out.

It's helped a few teams there for sure but it can be refined. The best implementations offer no avenue for cheats and exploits so that's what we'll go for.

That's what this concept is aiming to do, so teams don't end up marooned at the bottom if lag strikes.


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 19:24

I think not to put this in. doesnt happen on real life (As far as i know) if you wreck you wreck.

if you do go ahead make it so you have to make a clip otherwise you dont get it , then stops people "laggin out" when they have doen X miles when they did Y miles and gained an advantage.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 19:36

Also if somone doesnt wanna turn up for their stint or do 5 mins and then nsupposed lag then its cheatinjg
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 19:38

F4H Chrisupra wrote:I can assure you that the staff and development team have considered and thought of every scenario. There is 10+ brains at work in the background. I have to say, some very smart ideas have been brought up that tick all the boxes. Valid points are being brought up publicly and it's all being discussed. I think everyone will be happy with the outcome.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 19:42

Just 1 last thing from me ,please stop saying this doesn't happen in real life ..... unless you can show me video footage of a real life race car vanishing from the track.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 20:00

F4H Trash wrote:Just 1 last thing from me ,please stop saying this doesn't happen in real life ..... unless you can show me video footage of a real life race car vanishing from the track.

This made me laugh. You're not too bad Marty when you put your mind to it.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by henkymetcola on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 23:03

F4H Chrisupra wrote:
F4H Trash wrote:Just 1 last thing from me ,please stop saying this doesn't happen in real life ..... unless you can show me video footage of a real life race car vanishing from the track.

This made me laugh. You're not too bad Marty when you put your mind to it.

lolololololololololol


                                                             
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 23:30

I actually don't think I've seen one disappear...
But think of this.. When Toyota broke down this year did they say " ok you stopped quite close have a point bonus " not that I am aware off did they say to Sam tordoff at snetteron " well you made it to the line have points " no .

Point is if it happens like this why should we have a formula for it...ive lagged out , had people miss stints and just continued its for fun .
Hell were ment to be taking this seriously like IRL bur yet TCS is allowed and were giving points for leaving a race.

Hell if this happened in real life it would make my job easier...
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Xyloto on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 23:42

Sub Zero Nova 2 wrote:I actually don't think I've seen one disappear...
But think of this.. When Toyota broke down this year did they say " ok you stopped quite close have a point bonus " not that I am aware off  did they say to Sam tordoff at snetteron " well you made it to the line have points " no .

Point is if it happens like this why should we have a formula for it...ive lagged out , had people miss stints and just continued its for fun .
Hell were ment to be taking this seriously like IRL bur yet TCS is allowed and were giving points for leaving a race.

Hell if this happened in real life it would make my job easier...

It's not a bonus point. It's an answer to a problem with Forza lobbies that are completely out of our control. So no, it's not like Toyota breaking down. I refuse to buy that.

Exactly. It's not real life. We make the rules. Let's make them enjoyable and fair for all.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Thu 11 Aug 2016 - 23:53

But its not tho is it? We went from a good strict real life rules to quite relaxed rules on what's allowed.

Same argument for TCS/STM
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by HCR Motorhead on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 0:29

Lag outs are unique to e-sports only. And even then, I don't see them happening too often if at all on other games. You cannot compare it to anything else. So it makes sense to propose something to adapt to this unique set of circumstances.

But this is what the vote is for, what do you want to do? Do you want to keep the status quo or implement something that keep teams in the running at least, so they don't have an unassailable mission to even get off the bottom?


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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by Hailfire97x on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 2:54

HCR Motorhead wrote:Lag outs are unique to e-sports only. And even then, I don't see them happening too often if at all on other games. You cannot compare it to anything else. So it makes sense to propose something to adapt to this unique set of circumstances.

I remember TORA Live/TORA broadcasts from back in the day (2012) when lagouts were far more common than they are today. They were always considered the equivalent of an engine failure, an electronic failure, or even a catastrophic tire failure, at least as far as the easiest explanation for why someone vanished is. And honestly, the logic follows. Since we don't have any of the above on Forza simulated within the game itself, random occurrences that happen to your internet/Xbox are as close as we can come to it.

Sorry to troll earlier, it's just this was one of those things that seemed really self-serving to jump on and see. More I think about it, the more I realize what's going to happen. A-Lobby people are going to call B/C-lobby guys who disagree with them self-serving, and vice-versa. Top-tier guys don't want to feel like their time is wasted when something goes wrong, and bottom-tier guys appreciate the glimmer of hope they get when fortune smiles upon them. Just as often as I've capitalized on fast teammates' and allies' misfortunes, I've capitalized on those of my rivals. Matter of fact, my pep-talk for every TEC race I've been a part of for my teams goes something along the lines of:
"Be smooth, be consistent, be smart, and remember that anything can happen."
Or, a more famous quote:
"To finish first, you must first finish."
Now it seems that that point is moot. My dislike of this is nothing personal, no matter how it seems. It just kind of takes me from feeling like I have an extremely long-shot of winning to being simply part of the scenery--something the camera flashes past as the LMP lead laps me. It's deflating more than anything, but I understand the want to impose this rule--no matter how I dislike it.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by LMR Deftone MX on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 3:00

If Forza was actually made for races like this, the event wouldn't have to be split into 4, 6, or 12 "stints". Driver changes could happen throughout and there would be no need for this. 

Lag out formula only makes up in large part for T10's shortcomings. 

Unless all the people searching for realism at its finest are cool with racing in the cockpit with no line or communication to other drivers; let the lag out formula do its job of allowing the best team to take the win.. Not the team lucky enough to avoid getting forked.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 3:05

Hailfire97x wrote:
HCR Motorhead wrote:Lag outs are unique to e-sports only. And even then, I don't see them happening too often if at all on other games. You cannot compare it to anything else. So it makes sense to propose something to adapt to this unique set of circumstances.

I remember TORA Live/TORA broadcasts from back in the day (2012) when lagouts were far more common than they are today. They were always considered the equivalent of an engine failure, an electronic failure, or even a catastrophic tire failure, at least as far as the easiest explanation for why someone vanished is. And honestly, the logic follows. Since we don't have any of the above on Forza simulated within the game itself, random occurrences that happen to your internet/Xbox are as close as we can come to it.

Sorry to troll earlier, it's just this was one of those things that seemed really self-serving to jump on and see. More I think about it, the more I realize what's going to happen. A-Lobby people are going to call B/C-lobby guys who disagree with them self-serving, and vice-versa. Top-tier guys don't want to feel like their time is wasted when something goes wrong, and bottom-tier guys appreciate the glimmer of hope they get when fortune smiles upon them. Just as often as I've capitalized on fast teammates' and allies' misfortunes, I've capitalized on those of my rivals. Matter of fact, my pep-talk for every TEC race I've been a part of for my teams goes something along the lines of:
"Be smooth, be consistent, be smart, and remember that anything can happen."
Or, a more famous quote:
"To finish first, you must first finish."
Now it seems that that point is moot. My dislike of this is nothing personal, no matter how it seems. It just kind of takes me from feeling like I have an extremely long-shot of winning to being simply part of the scenery--something the camera flashes past as the LMP lead laps me. It's deflating more than anything, but I understand the want to impose this rule--no matter how I dislike it.

Some people compare lag outs to mechanical failure and that's gotta stop because they're not the same. Someone said that once and people got it stuck in their heads. A lag out is like a car vanishing off track. If we want mechanical failures, lets ask T10 for it in FM7 like we did in Formula One 97. People will use Toyota as an example and I'll use Audi who spent 25 minutes in the pits with Mechanical failure and kept going.

I think that's a very good post you mad and I agree with much of what you said. The way it looks like, in the background, is that you'll still find yourself down the grid with a lag out. It's not all doom and gloom and we are really trying to find a common ground. Put it like this, a lag out for our team essentially puts us out of the running but it won't put us out of complete competition where we rely on someone else lagging out to have some sort of competition. To be fair, at that point, I've better things to do with my Saturday.

A side note is that we are looking at a new structure for TEC next year which will address some of the points you said so all I can tell you is be excited! The TEC next year will enter a new level it hasn't been before.
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by F4H Lotterer on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 8:37

All this real life talk makes it apparent that from 2017 we are going forced cockpit view and no driver aids ...... realism Smile
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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

Post by desertrainfrog on Fri 12 Aug 2016 - 10:00

F4H Trash wrote:All this real life talk makes it apparent that from 2017 we are going forced cockpit view and no driver aids ...... realism Smile

I'd be up for that Smile

Not kidding.


And to leave my opinion here, too:
I think that a lagout formula is not the way to go. In the end a team that lagged out is being credited valuable miles they didn't actually run and that is not really fair in comparison to the drivers/teams that actually went that distance.
This is an endurance race after all and as others already mentioned we don't have mechanical failures or other to real life comparable pure coincidences that could hit anyone at any time except lagouts.
And don't start with accidents now, since that is not a random and unavoidable thing - these are mistakes by the driver(s) and have nothing to do with that.
I don't want to give lagouts a right to exist here but it's the only comparable coincidence that can actually hit anyone at any time.
And depending on the team's attitude, they either give up instantly because "they can never make up that distance"/"the chance on a podium finish/first place is lost" or they try their best to complete the remaining stints and gain a few positions back or even make it back to the front - depending on luck, cunning, willingness and possible circumstances the other teams have to deal with over time - while having a great time doing it, too.


And to comment on the "Have you seen a race car vanishing from the track in real life?"-question:
-I haven't seen them vanish like *pop* ... gone. But I have seen a lot things close to that at races on the green hell ^^



Feel free to add the ribbon for second place in Teams of PCARS Spec Cup Season 4 *wink*

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Re: Community VOTE : TEC Lag out formula.

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