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A Harsh But Necessary Review

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by Freheliaz on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 19:57

For the love of god people don't let this get outa hand.



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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by FranchittiFan on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 19:58

Please watch use of language on the forums guys and please respect each others views. Thank you.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by xebot360 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 19:58

Freheliaz wrote:For the love of god people don't let this get outa hand.

Think it has already...

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by Senna on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:01

[/quote]

You consistently block me for over half a lap when I was much faster than you, and when I get stuck on curb and you rear end me, you call that me hitting you? I gained nearly 2,000 feet on you in the first quarter of a lap, but I couldn't get around you because you stayed planted in the middle of the road and moved in front of me every time I tried to pass you. I waited until the safest possible moment to get around you in a slow turn under braking. I lost over 4,000 feet to the car ahead because I was stuck on your ass for so long. I accidentally took a little too much curb after I passed you and got slowed down when I bottomed out, and you hit me. Then you have the nerve to call me a "liability?" I was complaining about this in the party chat and another driver said that you had been blocking him in the previous stint as well, so I am not the only one to have experienced this. You cannot blame a problem on someone else when you are the one who created the problem in the first place. [/quote]

Honestly, this is the reason this is a problem and it's because you simply don't understand racing ettiquette at all.

First of all:


  • You absolutely did not gain on me by 2000ft in the first quarter of any lap. In fact, you lost over 15000ft to me by stints end.


  • You crashed directly in front of me (on one of the easiest corners of the circuit I might add) and expect me not to hit you.


  • The onus is not on us to move out of your way. You aren't lapping us. I didn't block, I held my line as any TCC should.


You've absolutely lost the plot and your post only highlights the fact that you clearly do not understand what is necessary to compete in these events.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by ruthlessrellik on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:03

Capirossi22 wrote:
Senna wrote:I agree with everything posted. Being slow isn't an issue, it's a lack of experience coupled with a blatant disregard in some cases for other drivers when you make a mistake. In stint 5 I was hit no less than 3 times by cars that by all rights should be nowhere near me. The only thing stopping a huge accident was the experience and reactions of drivers in TCC to avoid the liabilities littering the track. There has to be something in place for future events to stop this from happening, there is plenty that can be done and I know for sure that if asked, the majority of racers would be willing to help. There was a huge thread after Silverstone but nothing was done. The sentiment of Davids' post is one that is shared by many in the community and there is a huge risk right now that if tings aren't addressed quickly, there will most likely be a mass exodus.

TORA needs to have a good inward look because right now there is no incentive to race here whatsoever. These issues are not new and there has been little to no movement to rectify them and that just isn't acceptable. People take these events seriously and put in a huge amount of effort and time, time which is wasted when people like the drivers David listed above ruin things. This isn't elitist, this should be the pinnacle of organised racing and right now it just isn't. These are the marquee events for TORA, when things like this happen it looks bad. I know for a fact that Microsoft were watching this weekend. Is this the spectacle we want to put forward to them?

It's time for the staff to make some serious decisions about what TORA is and what it wants to be. There are legitimate alternatives out there and they are fast becoming more attractive.

There were some plus points, TCC battles were fantastic, some great side by side racing at points and I don't think I ever saw an incident in a TCC on TCC battle. The event was on time but the hosts need a little more support and cohesion. At one stage results from a previous stint had already been input so the grid wasn't accurate and the starting procedure was different in every stint I raced in. Kudos on the reactive stewarding too, having people proactively punished was nice, however the penalties applied did nothing to really address the problem. Giving someone at the back a distance penalty is nonsensical.

Finally, congratulations to all winners and thanks to all of our competitors in TCC. We will hopefully see you all again in 2017.

You consistently block me for over half a lap when I was much faster than you, and when I get stuck on curb and you rear end me, you call that me hitting you? I gained nearly 2,000 feet on you in the first quarter of a lap, but I couldn't get around you because you stayed planted in the middle of the road and moved in front of me every time I tried to pass you. I waited until the safest possible moment to get around you in a slow turn under braking. I lost over 4,000 feet to the car ahead because I was stuck on your ass for so long. I accidentally took a little too much curb after I passed you and got slowed down when I bottomed out, and you hit me. Then you have the nerve to call me a "liability?" I was complaining about this in the party chat and another driver said that you had been blocking him in the previous stint as well, so I am not the only one to have experienced this. You cannot blame a problem on someone else when you are the one who created the problem in the first place.

Agreed. While we may have been in behind the TCC cars, this was not on pace. This was because of to many mistakes. Granted we probably shouldn't have started out with the Nurburgring, and we certainly didn't practice enough. We were however faster than the TCC cars on pace and repeatedly got stuck behind you guys because you take up the entire track. I to spoke about this during my stint. We may have made mistakes but they were simply that, MISTAKES. Maybe the biggest mistake was engaging you clowns in conversation when you really only wanted air shot up your ass. Again our actions do warrant an apology but some of you do not deserve that.

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by ruthlessrellik on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:06

A question I have for you TCC cars is simple. Why should we not be allowed to run a car that we want because we are off pace? Why are you allowed to run a TCC car when you would be much better off in a GT car, and this would not be such a big deal?

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by CAR Harmonic on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:09

Capirossi22 wrote:
Senna wrote:I agree with everything posted. Being slow isn't an issue, it's a lack of experience coupled with a blatant disregard in some cases for other drivers when you make a mistake. In stint 5 I was hit no less than 3 times by cars that by all rights should be nowhere near me. The only thing stopping a huge accident was the experience and reactions of drivers in TCC to avoid the liabilities littering the track. There has to be something in place for future events to stop this from happening, there is plenty that can be done and I know for sure that if asked, the majority of racers would be willing to help. There was a huge thread after Silverstone but nothing was done. The sentiment of Davids' post is one that is shared by many in the community and there is a huge risk right now that if tings aren't addressed quickly, there will most likely be a mass exodus.

TORA needs to have a good inward look because right now there is no incentive to race here whatsoever. These issues are not new and there has been little to no movement to rectify them and that just isn't acceptable. People take these events seriously and put in a huge amount of effort and time, time which is wasted when people like the drivers David listed above ruin things. This isn't elitist, this should be the pinnacle of organised racing and right now it just isn't. These are the marquee events for TORA, when things like this happen it looks bad. I know for a fact that Microsoft were watching this weekend. Is this the spectacle we want to put forward to them?

It's time for the staff to make some serious decisions about what TORA is and what it wants to be. There are legitimate alternatives out there and they are fast becoming more attractive.

There were some plus points, TCC battles were fantastic, some great side by side racing at points and I don't think I ever saw an incident in a TCC on TCC battle. The event was on time but the hosts need a little more support and cohesion. At one stage results from a previous stint had already been input so the grid wasn't accurate and the starting procedure was different in every stint I raced in. Kudos on the reactive stewarding too, having people proactively punished was nice, however the penalties applied did nothing to really address the problem. Giving someone at the back a distance penalty is nonsensical.

Finally, congratulations to all winners and thanks to all of our competitors in TCC. We will hopefully see you all again in 2017.

You consistently block me for over half a lap when I was much faster than you, and when I get stuck on curb and you rear end me, you call that me hitting you? I gained nearly 2,000 feet on you in the first quarter of a lap, but I couldn't get around you because you stayed planted in the middle of the road and moved in front of me every time I tried to pass you. I waited until the safest possible moment to get around you in a slow turn under braking. I lost over 4,000 feet to the car ahead because I was stuck on your ass for so long. I accidentally took a little too much curb after I passed you and got slowed down when I bottomed out, and you hit me. Then you have the nerve to call me a "liability?" I was complaining about this in the party chat and another driver said that you had been blocking him in the previous stint as well, so I am not the only one to have experienced this. You cannot blame a problem on someone else when you are the one who created the problem in the first place.

You were in GT class, so of COURSE you were going to be faster than a TCC car... You shouldn't have been behind him in the first place. GT cars have much more power, so passing a TCC car on the straight is easy. Also, if you actually read the rules as required when signing up, you'd know it's the faster car's responsibility to overtake a slower car in a different class.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:09

xebot360 wrote:Thing is though, kick those drivers out and you're left with the likes of F4H, HCR and LMR only pretty much racing here, lowering attendance even more

The sad thing is, we are all that are left of what you guys commonly call the elite teams. I truly wish it was different. I understand your stance but you just cannot sacrifice attendance for standards, etiquette and quality. If you do that then what is the point? We won today but there was no substance to it. We didn't punch the air or anything like that. We said 'Good job boys' and then the conversation went elsewhere. It just hasn't been a satisfying win and I have to go back to 2013/14 to find one that really mattered.

We are all talking about different issues here. I agree that the quality issue is magnified because of the attendance issue. Really, we are all coming at the issue of the domino affect from different angles. This issue with standards has probably always been here but it now has reached the surface. The truth of the matter is that while TORA boast 327498 members, most of those have only ever logged in once, we've never seen them again and I reckon the regular sign ins are now only double digits. If we want to address the issue, we need to be honest about the situation we find ourselves in.

I am probably witness to more than anyone else on this site and can give an honest reflection of where I see the issues and what has worked and what hasn't. We all want the same thing but have a different way of saying it. I really do believe in the potential of TORA and I asked MS to watch the race yesterday and thankfully they didn't have the time and want me to send a recording. I am trying to find a good stint to send so I am open to suggestions. I look to the S1 of Le Mans 2013 and compare it to yesterday and I am inclined to send the one from 2013. Excellent HUD, excellent prep and comms and great racing.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by CAR Harmonic on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:11

ruthlessrellik wrote:A question I have for you TCC cars is simple. Why should we not be allowed to run a car that we want because we are off pace? Why are you allowed to run a TCC car when you would be much better off in a GT car, and this would not be such a big deal?

We ran TCC because we wanted to, but we're experienced enough to drive in EITHER class. Again, being off pace ISN'T the issue - it's the fact that you repeatedly interfered with another class and served as a hazard on track. I don't know how it can be put any simpler... If you don't like hearing that, then improve your race craft so it doesn't happen again.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by xebot360 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:14

F4H Hakkinen wrote:
xebot360 wrote:Thing is though, kick those drivers out and you're left with the likes of F4H, HCR and LMR only pretty much racing here, lowering attendance even more

The sad thing is, we are all that are left of what you guys commonly call the elite teams. I truly wish it was different. I understand your stance but you just cannot sacrifice attendance for standards, etiquette and quality. If you do that then what is the point? We won today but there was no substance to it. We didn't punch the air or anything like that. We said 'Good job boys' and then the conversation went elsewhere. It just hasn't been a satisfying win and I have to go back to 2013/14 to find one that really mattered.

We are all talking about different issues here. I agree that the quality issue is magnified because of the attendance issue. Really, we are all coming at the issue of the domino affect from different angles. This issue with standards has probably always been here but it now has reached the surface. The truth of the matter is that while TORA boast 327498 members, most of those have only ever logged in once, we've never seen them again and I reckon the regular sign ins are now only double digits. If we want to address the issue, we need to be honest about the situation we find ourselves in.

I am probably witness to more than anyone else on this site and can give an honest reflection of where I see the issues and what has worked and what hasn't. We all want the same thing but have a different way of saying it. I really do believe in the potential of TORA and I asked MS to watch the race yesterday and thankfully they didn't have the time and want me to send a recording. I am trying to find a good stint to send so I am open to suggestions. I look to the S1 of Le Mans 2013 and compare it to yesterday and I am inclined to send the one from 2013. Excellent HUD, excellent prep and comms and great racing.

Yeah. That race was epic to watch is what got me wanting to race here XD. It is sad but there could be a way to get the "lesser" drivers to become "better" i.e a class system but it will take a while to sort but will see an improvement overall.

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by ruthlessrellik on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:28

CAR Harmonic wrote:
ruthlessrellik wrote:A question I have for you TCC cars is simple. Why should we not be allowed to run a car that we want because we are off pace? Why are you allowed to run a TCC car when you would be much better off in a GT car, and this would not be such a big deal?

We ran TCC because we wanted to, but we're experienced enough to drive in EITHER class. Again, being off pace ISN'T the issue - it's the fact that you repeatedly interfered with another class and served as a hazard on track. I don't know how it can be put any simpler... If you don't like hearing that, then improve your race craft so it doesn't happen again.

Yes then your solution for slower drivers to drive the TCC car is pointless. Why would you tell other people they don't get to choose the car they want to drive, but you do? Any ways I do agree that we were in the way, sloppy, and put you guys in a tough position. We should have came more prepared or raced a different track first.

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:29

Oh for sure, I mean we want more people here. I think we all want that and it goes without saying but you cannot sacrifice the quality and the standards for that sake.

@ruthlessrellik - I am no King believe me but I think you'll agree that I've only called you out on your etiquette on track yesterday and perceived negative attitude towards your actions. I don't think I need to be called a [Censored] for doing that as you've said yourself it was unacceptable.

You were not up to par to take part yesterday as you couldn't keep the car on track at all. I think you'll agree with that and you agree you were a hazard so you must understand why people are upset. I suspect, and it's totally fine, that you have no concept of the work and prep it takes to win these events or even be competitive? To have all that ruined and taken away by someone just monkeying about is tough to take. I thankfully did not meet you on track but I felt for the guys you did hit. You cannot blame them for being upset.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by CAR Harmonic on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:34

ruthlessrellik wrote:
CAR Harmonic wrote:
ruthlessrellik wrote:A question I have for you TCC cars is simple. Why should we not be allowed to run a car that we want because we are off pace? Why are you allowed to run a TCC car when you would be much better off in a GT car, and this would not be such a big deal?

We ran TCC because we wanted to, but we're experienced enough to drive in EITHER class. Again, being off pace ISN'T the issue - it's the fact that you repeatedly interfered with another class and served as a hazard on track. I don't know how it can be put any simpler... If you don't like hearing that, then improve your race craft so it doesn't happen again.

Yes then your solution for slower drivers to drive the TCC car is pointless. Why would you tell other people they don't get to choose the car they want to drive, but you do?

You're missing the point entirely... If a slower team in GT dropped down to TCC, there would be little to no interference. Even if the team was slow enough to be lapped once or even twice on the Nurburgring, the rest of our GT field was competent enough to lap them given that they lapped other TCC cars during the race without issues. Racing here is a privilege, or at least it used to be...
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by TechnologicMau5 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:47

I feel that with this event, we hit a lot of our goals for organization that has been a big issue in the past. There certainly is more room for improvement, and organization is something we can never let our guard down with.

Going forward into 2017, driver standards are going to be our main focus. Throughout the year, this has been an issue, and there have been plenty of good ideas surrounding it. However, it was always viewed as unfair to start placing restrictions on drivers in the middle of a season. That, and the organizational issues took top priority, because if they weren't sorted, there'd be no race in the first place.

A significant factor in why this event was run more smoothly was because of the recent addition of myself and others to the Staff team. Anyone in my lobbies can attest that they were run on point, at the very least in the GT party. That's because I saw a problem, and I stepped up to help fix it. So when I see legitimate rants like this with important issues, and meaningful solutions, followed by "I'm leaving" from multiple important, helpful people, it SERIOUSLY INFURIATES ME.

How do you expect us to fix these issues if we don't have the damn manpower to do it? I understand why you guys are so upset, and you don't feel like involvement here is worth your time. I was there in the first half of this year. But by leaving, "maybe to return if things improve", you're basically feeding the problems you're complaining about, and letting TORA die.

TORA is a community, not a company. We can only solve our problems by stepping up to solve them together. As I type this we are getting ready for the first Staff meeting since us newcomers have been added. With the organizational success we had this weekend, and the end of a season, driver standards are going to be heavily discussed as the main focus going into 2017.

You guys have been a significant help in getting things sorted this year. It's a shame you decided you won't be around to help solve the next problem.








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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by Darkzer24 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:50

HCR Motorhead wrote:
ruthlessrellik wrote:You guys can't sit here and complain about lack of attendance then say that 20% of the drivers shouldn't be allowed to race anymore. You can't treat new drivers like they're peasants and you're all gods. Maybe step off your high horse and realize this is a video game. We all wanted to come out and have fun. I did have fun during my stint, not because I ran around the track wrecking into every wall and driver. I wanted to come out and drive a good race for my team to have a chance to beat some people. I did have fun though. I had fun because everyone in my stint was enjoying themselves and not taking this more serious than is warranted.

I think you're all handling this wrong, I've talked with many of the stewards here since yesterday and before the race. They've all been very cordial and welcomed me and my team back for other series. You guys sitting here as if you're better than everyone may very well be the reason this series is loosing members.

Have some class, don't be an ass.

Credit must be given to the way your team handled the situation last night and a warning goes out to anyone in that stream who was flaming, baiting and trolling. There is a line and people crossed it. The stark truth is that some events are harder than others and this is one of the hardest and you're going up [Censored] creek without a paddle. The stewards made their decision on your actions and hopefully that gives some stimulus on what TORA expects from its drivers. It's certainly not a crime to be slow but if you're hazardous and dangerous then that's not welcome. You weren't actually supposed to be fighting the Touring Car spec class cars but you found yourself there and you did what you did and we hope that you understand our reasoning for issuing the sanctions that we did, hopefully this doesn't mean total discouragement and that you can practice and have an appropriate attitude towards these tough racing disciplines.

But if anyone is outrageously negligent or malicious with no intention to change their attitude or even care and give respect to people around them, it's these people that are likely to completely fall out of favour with the community and stewards/staff alike.

HCR Motorhead, I appreciate you saying this. I got an xbox message at around the time ruthless' stint ended saying what happened... screaming internally So I immediately reached out to Hunty and TJSteel do see what happened and what the outcome was. We (the Reddit Racing team) really felt awful about the situation, and attempted to resolve it as neutrally as possible. Much thanks to HCR TJSteel, HCR Motorhead, and hunty1981 for taking the time to explain everything to me, and for restoring 75% of the distance from stint 4.

I can totally appreciate everyone's reasons for being upset. Some of the drivers were clearly just inexperienced for this event, and going forward we will be more careful with class, car, and driver selections if welcomed back for additional races in the future.

CAR Harmonic, I apologize on behalf of the Reddit Racing team for the unpleasantness you experienced in your stints. Our guys were not driving maliciously, they were just slower and inexperienced with wet and night driving. With regard to ruthlessrellik's personal insult to you, Reddit Racing (the team and the subreddit) does not share in that opinion.

From previous series we have run (not with TORA), ruthlessrellik and Capirossi22 are rarely the cause of issues between classes or other drivers. I can vouch for their on-track awareness outside of this specific race.

If there is one thing we (Reddit Racing) can take away from this race, it's that a lot more preparation is required for TORA events than we anticipated. If we are welcomed back, rest assured that we will all be faster and more self-aware on track.

Personally, I enjoyed my stints and the conversations preceding and following them. You all are welcomed to join in the series run at /r/redditracing. We aren't quite as fast as TORA at the sharp end, but the racing is always fun and competitive.

Thank you for hosting the event.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by Capirossi22 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 20:52

You consistently block me for over half a lap when I was much faster than you, and when I get stuck on curb and you rear end me, you call that me hitting you? I gained nearly 2,000 feet on you in the first quarter of a lap, but I couldn't get around you because you stayed planted in the middle of the road and moved in front of me every time I tried to pass you. I waited until the safest possible moment to get around you in a slow turn under braking. I lost over 4,000 feet to the car ahead because I was stuck on your ass for so long. I accidentally took a little too much curb after I passed you and got slowed down when I bottomed out, and you hit me. Then you have the nerve to call me a "liability?" I was complaining about this in the party chat and another driver said that you had been blocking him in the previous stint as well, so I am not the only one to have experienced this. You cannot blame a problem on someone else when you are the one who created the problem in the first place. [/quote]

Honestly, this is the reason this is a problem and it's because you simply don't understand racing ettiquette at all.

First of all:


  • You absolutely did not gain on me by 2000ft in the first quarter of any lap. In fact, you lost over 15000ft to me by stints end.


  • You crashed directly in front of me (on one of the easiest corners of the circuit I might add) and expect me not to hit you.


  • The onus is not on us to move out of your way. You aren't lapping us. I didn't block, I held my line as any TCC should.


You've absolutely lost the plot and your post only highlights the fact that you clearly do not understand what is necessary to compete in these events.[/quote]

1. I did gain significantly on you. How else would I have been stuck behind you for so long? How would I even have ended up behind you in the first place?

2. I was stuck behind you for a very long time because you would not stop blocking me. I was much faster than you, but I could not pass you because you were cruising in the middle of the road and moving across in front of me every time I tried to come up alongside you. In fact, you hit me when I finally did pass you. I moved up your inside into a slow turn, and you turned into me instead of taking a slightly wider line to let me by when I already had my nose in front of you.

I didn't expect you to not hit me. But I do expect you to not tell the whole forum that I hit you when I made a mistake while in front of you and got hit from behind. It was a racing incident. Yes I screwed up my braking zone and bottomed out on a curb, but there was nothing that either of us could have done about it once it happened. So please tell me how me screwing up a braking zone and getting a glancing blow from behind = me hitting you? Please tell me how that means I should be penalized or banned?

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Capirossi22/video/24205817

3. On multiple occasions I was coming up behind you on a straight section of track and you stayed in the middle. If you had moved over a bit and let me through, you would not have lost any time at all. I call that blocking, and I don't know who wouldn't. I get that it is my responsibility to get around you, but that doesn't make it okay to make it impossible for me to cleanly pass you. I was complaining about your driving in the party, and another driver said that he had experienced the same problem with you in the previous stint. You need to improve your own racecraft before you go telling everyone that we shouldn't be allowed on track.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by Capirossi22 on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:01

Darkzer24 wrote:
HCR Motorhead wrote:
ruthlessrellik wrote:You guys can't sit here and complain about lack of attendance then say that 20% of the drivers shouldn't be allowed to race anymore. You can't treat new drivers like they're peasants and you're all gods. Maybe step off your high horse and realize this is a video game. We all wanted to come out and have fun. I did have fun during my stint, not because I ran around the track wrecking into every wall and driver. I wanted to come out and drive a good race for my team to have a chance to beat some people. I did have fun though. I had fun because everyone in my stint was enjoying themselves and not taking this more serious than is warranted.

I think you're all handling this wrong, I've talked with many of the stewards here since yesterday and before the race. They've all been very cordial and welcomed me and my team back for other series. You guys sitting here as if you're better than everyone may very well be the reason this series is loosing members.

Have some class, don't be an ass.

Credit must be given to the way your team handled the situation last night and a warning goes out to anyone in that stream who was flaming, baiting and trolling. There is a line and people crossed it. The stark truth is that some events are harder than others and this is one of the hardest and you're going up [Censored] creek without a paddle. The stewards made their decision on your actions and hopefully that gives some stimulus on what TORA expects from its drivers. It's certainly not a crime to be slow but if you're hazardous and dangerous then that's not welcome. You weren't actually supposed to be fighting the Touring Car spec class cars but you found yourself there and you did what you did and we hope that you understand our reasoning for issuing the sanctions that we did, hopefully this doesn't mean total discouragement and that you can practice and have an appropriate attitude towards these tough racing disciplines.

But if anyone is outrageously negligent or malicious with no intention to change their attitude or even care and give respect to people around them, it's these people that are likely to completely fall out of favour with the community and stewards/staff alike.

HCR Motorhead, I appreciate you saying this. I got an xbox message at around the time ruthless' stint ended saying what happened... screaming internally So I immediately reached out to Hunty and TJSteel do see what happened and what the outcome was. We (the Reddit Racing team) really felt awful about the situation, and attempted to resolve it as neutrally as possible. Much thanks to HCR TJSteel, HCR Motorhead, and hunty1981 for taking the time to explain everything to me, and for restoring 75% of the distance from stint 4.

I can totally appreciate everyone's reasons for being upset. Some of the drivers were clearly just inexperienced for this event, and going forward we will be more careful with class, car, and driver selections if welcomed back for additional races in the future.

CAR Harmonic, I apologize on behalf of the Reddit Racing team for the unpleasantness you experienced in your stints. Our guys were not driving maliciously, they were just slower and inexperienced with wet and night driving. With regard to ruthlessrellik's personal insult to you, Reddit Racing (the team and the subreddit) does not share in that opinion.

From previous series we have run (not with TORA), ruthlessrellik and Capirossi22 are rarely the cause of issues between classes or other drivers. I can vouch for their on-track awareness outside of this specific race.

If there is one thing we (Reddit Racing) can take away from this race, it's that a lot more preparation is required for TORA events than we anticipated. If we are welcomed back, rest assured that we will all be faster and more self-aware on track.

Personally, I enjoyed my stints and the conversations preceding and following them. You all are welcomed to join in the series run at /r/redditracing. We aren't quite as fast as TORA at the sharp end, but the racing is always fun and competitive.

Thank you for hosting the event.

I couldn't have said it better myself. All drivers in our team enjoyed the race, and all of us came with the goal of having clean, competitive racing and doing our best. I can't say that we did our best, or even that we were clean or competitive, but we still enjoyed ourselves and strive to make ourselves better in all respects. We plan on putting much more time into preparing for any future endurance races. This was our first major competition so we weren't used to this level of competitiveness and seriousness. But the only way to go from here is up, and we will be make an effort to be the best we can.

Sorry if any comments I have made seem heated. If anything people have been saying holds value then my and my teammates' futures with TORA are on the line and I'm trying my best to defend myself.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by ruthlessrellik on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:01

F4H Hakkinen wrote:Oh for sure, I mean we want more people here. I think we all want that and it goes without saying but you cannot sacrifice the quality and the standards for that sake.

@ruthlessrellik - I am no King believe me but I think you'll agree that I've only called you out on your etiquette on track yesterday and perceived negative attitude towards your actions. I don't think I need to be called a [Censored] for doing that as you've said yourself it was unacceptable.

You were not up to par to take part yesterday as you couldn't keep the car on track at all. I think you'll agree with that and you agree you were a hazard so you must understand why people are upset. I suspect, and it's totally fine, that you have no concept of the work and prep it takes to win these events or even be competitive? To have all that ruined and taken away by someone just monkeying about is tough to take. I thankfully did not meet you on track but I felt for the guys you did hit. You cannot blame them for being upset.

You still seem to not be reading what I have been saying, and for you guys to just assume that we didn't prepare is why I am offended. You saying I was just monkeying around is why I am offended. You saying I couldn't keep the car on track is why I am offended. You acting like I am not owning up to my actions, its just asinine.

I improved greatly from my first attempt. I did have a very good run going for the first half until I really started loosing my concentration. There was a lot of banter in my party during my stint. I had to learn how to use Manual transmission for this race, as I used to run automatic. I to prepared a lot for this race, and while my team did not expect to blow you all our of the water, we were trying to beat some people.

For two people to come in and start attacking me, after I had been punished by the stewards and accepted the punishment, makes you all look bad. I know I was off pace and I know I wasn't going to set a clean lap.

I was expecting for our team to put in B lobby which would separate my team from the fast TCC cars. This again falls down to lack of attendance. I didn't mean to be in the way or cause any incidents.

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by ruthlessrellik on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:05

Capirossi22 wrote:You consistently block me for over half a lap when I was much faster than you, and when I get stuck on curb and you rear end me, you call that me hitting you? I gained nearly 2,000 feet on you in the first quarter of a lap, but I couldn't get around you because you stayed planted in the middle of the road and moved in front of me every time I tried to pass you. I waited until the safest possible moment to get around you in a slow turn under braking. I lost over 4,000 feet to the car ahead because I was stuck on your ass for so long. I accidentally took a little too much curb after I passed you and got slowed down when I bottomed out, and you hit me. Then you have the nerve to call me a "liability?" I was complaining about this in the party chat and another driver said that you had been blocking him in the previous stint as well, so I am not the only one to have experienced this. You cannot blame a problem on someone else when you are the one who created the problem in the first place.

Honestly, this is the reason this is a problem and it's because you simply don't understand racing ettiquette at all.

First of all:


  • You absolutely did not gain on me by 2000ft in the first quarter of any lap. In fact, you lost over 15000ft to me by stints end.


  • You crashed directly in front of me (on one of the easiest corners of the circuit I might add) and expect me not to hit you.


  • The onus is not on us to move out of your way. You aren't lapping us. I didn't block, I held my line as any TCC should.


You've absolutely lost the plot and your post only highlights the fact that you clearly do not understand what is necessary to compete in these events.[/quote]

1. I did gain significantly on you. How else would I have been stuck behind you for so long? How would I even have ended up behind you in the first place?

2. I was stuck behind you for a very long time because you would not stop blocking me. I was much faster than you, but I could not pass you because you were cruising in the middle of the road and moving across in front of me every time I tried to come up alongside you. In fact, you hit me when I finally did pass you. I moved up your inside into a slow turn, and you turned into me instead of taking a slightly wider line to let me by when I already had my nose in front of you.

I didn't expect you to not hit me. But I do expect you to not tell the whole forum that I hit you when I made a mistake while in front of you and got hit from behind. It was a racing incident. Yes I screwed up my braking zone and bottomed out on a curb, but there was nothing that either of us could have done about it once it happened. So please tell me how me screwing up a braking zone and getting a glancing blow from behind = me hitting you? Please tell me how that means I should be penalized or banned?

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Capirossi22/video/24205817

3. On multiple occasions I was coming up behind you on a straight section of track and you stayed in the middle. If you had moved over a bit and let me through, you would not have lost any time at all. I call that blocking, and I don't know who wouldn't. I get that it is my responsibility to get around you, but that doesn't make it okay to make it impossible for me to cleanly pass you. I was complaining about your driving in the party, and another driver said that he had experienced the same problem with you in the previous stint. You need to improve your own racecraft before you go telling everyone that we shouldn't be allowed on track.[/quote]

Cap with that hot fire.

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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by MID LAND ZETA on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:13

nvm


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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by F4H Hakkinen on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:17

ruthlessrellik wrote:You still seem to not be reading what I have been saying, and for you guys to just assume that we didn't prepare is why I am offended. You saying I was just monkeying around is why I am offended. You saying I couldn't keep the car on track is why I am offended. You acting like I am not owning up to my actions, its just asinine.

I'm reading it. Not sure why you're offended because you didn't seem prepared, it seemed like monkeying around and you actually couldn't keep the car on track so why would you be offended by me pointing this out? I've also said that you did agree that you were a hazard (backs up my three points above) so I am aware you're owning up. I guess we are not reading each others posts? scratch

I ain't going to argue with you anymore or comment on the matter because it is fruitless. The staff are aware of the points we are raising and I trust they will make the right decisions.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by LMP Phantom on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:32

Give me one example of me 'interfering' with TCC cars. The two experiences I had with them was getting blocked by an LMR car in a wet stint - your team as it so happens - on a straight and when going around him, caught a puddle and span, unfortunately resulting in a crash with another GT car. Sorry we're not all as fast as you 'elitists' of the community Harmonic. Yeah I was way off pace in the two wet stints but I did everything i could to not get in the way of the TCC cars for the other stints I took part in, my pace slower, but still enough to keep up with the other GTs. The other indecent, again in the wet, is when I went to pass HCR Noodle, again didn't quite pay off and resulted in another off but neither car was hurt or damaged and we continued on and I waited for safer place to make the pass. Now then you didn't take part in the wet stints did you, so how exactly can you comment on driving standards if you weren't there to see it for yourself? Now then, if anyone from your team, or any other for that matter feels the same way about my driving in particular during this event then i would urge them to say it to me themselves in private message, rather than piss and moan to someone else about it and they then make posts like this. So far all Ive seen after every TEC race is you complain about everyone else not being good enough. At least that's how it feels to me


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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by LMP Dragon on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:53

In my team's defence... We didn't have a great car to drive and that was on our part.

But I kept the TCC flowing and I didn't interfere too much. I'm sorry that some of us don't have the time to put too much time into it due to external sources. Like work.

I also apologise that you guys think that the standard of racing has dropped and that the community isn't as tight knit.

This was our first Nurburgring event and we felt we did well, although we made many mistakes, that's how you get better. Some of the team have been here multiple years and have not had any issues prior put suddenly, one event is suddenly the downside of some of the more reputable drivers here? I'm sorry but your judgement is poorly misjudged.

I'm not going to take sides and I'm definitely not going to deny that some standards were pretty poor, especially the wet and night. Nurburgring isn't the easiest of tracks by any means and the fact that you're making it out to be is stupid.

I'd also like to apologise to the fact that the community isn't what it used to be because people are being driven out more than they are being attracted. Quite frankly, my team are quite sick of this and we've been here for 3 years and put up with it. We try to make our voices heard but they're a whisper in the wind here. Again, this is just a game and we all race to have fun but if mistakes cannot be made then NO ONE will better themselves. We want a great community, not ones that blind eye some of the situations.

Another thing, the staff were great at running this event and some good laughs were had. I'm sorry that all of the top dogs felt that no one could beat them because you're top dogs for a reason... With this in mind, then you will understand smaller and less experienced teams are going to make mistakes. Quite frankly, in my opinion, listing drivers is shameful because then you're taking all of the onus off yourself and putting it onto other drivers. Thanks for your input, by the way, I'm pretty sure insulting reputations is a good way to keep a community happy.

TEC is by far the worst possible championship for these complaints because it also has the biggest draw in and that means the most problems occur. First it was organisation and now it's standards. I'm sorry but the SI form is there for a reason and I'm so sorry that the "Elitists" here feel offended by a community being unable to enjoy themselves any more. Some don't compete to win, some compete to have fun. Again, some standards weren't met but at the end of the day, it's still a game.

Nurburgring I think most would agree was a dreadful venue for this year but it's 2016 and this is the society we live in.

The community is what you make it. If you want it to be a shaming, overdominant, unwelcoming place then that is what you will get. Just remember that some drivers aren't the best of the rest like some of you but perhaps you would value how much the smaller teams add variety and depth to the grid.

Dragon
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by HCR Solar on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 21:57

you guys are reading what harmonic said WRONGLY all together he isn't saying u gotta be as quick as him or others around his pace just quick enough not 2 be involved with the battle with the top guys in the lower class Fck me lol.




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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

Post by LMP Dragon on Sun 4 Dec 2016 - 22:01

HCR Solar wrote:you guys are reading what harmonic said WRONGLY all together he isn't saying u gotta be as quick as him or others around his pace just quick enough not 2 be involved with the battle with the top guys in the lower class Fck me lol.

I will not comment further on this. But rest assured some of us actually struggled, so why would it be a surprise? It happens in real life too, so there is that. Again, I'm sorry standards and expectations are not being upheld but I don't recall it involving being ahead of a lower class regardless, just keeping your etiquette on track... Pace is not relevant and that's why we normally have multiple lobbies. But this was a single lobby, something had to give, and it did.
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Re: A Harsh But Necessary Review

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