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TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Forza Europa on Tue 11 Sep 2018 - 5:57

BG Cowboy wrote:Unfortunately you cannot credit a person/team with a qualifying laptime that they haven't done - it would be unfair on those who have put in the effort to set times.

You could try to have it so Stint 3 starts with the results and positions from Stint 1 but sorted across the whole field instead of just the lobby however that brings up a whole new set of logistical problems including (but not limited to) : lobbys ending up without planned hosts, anyone double stinting holding up more than their own lobby, double whammy for anyone with connection issues in Stint 1 etc.

I think the second half of your post is a bit strong. As the faster class, negotiating traffic (whoever it is) is YOUR responsibility. In the WEC the fastest P1 drivers have to deal with the slowest GTE Am drivers and that's forgetting about the P2 cars that aren't in this field. Accidents can and do happen in virtual racing just as they do in real racing - if you are going to try a risky pass you have to be prepared for it to hurt when it doesn't come off.

There are plenty of instances in real racing where using the rules to your advantage has happened. Would you gamble on not qualifying because if someone else does it too then you can have more of a battle in C Lobby than A Lobby? Not to mention if you think some A Lobby drivers have "a pathetic standard of car control and track awareness" then what hope is there for C Lobby drivers - surely there is more risk being in C Lobby?

It’s the lack of consistency among skill levels that causes the incidents. As a front running A lobby proto I don’t care what lines people take, as long as they are predictable, with drivers that don’t really belong there on pace they’re unpredictable, rash, and cause incidents. It’s been the same for the first two rounds and everyone in Proto in A lobby has had that issue. I have no problems with the majority of GT traffic in A lobby, after a few circulations you’re able to read the good drivers car language but the back of A lobby has been dismal recently. If I am in a lobby of the slowest drivers WITH the ability to communicate with a party, as C lobby had, then I can call out sides to which I would pass on, despite them being of lower skill, information through communication is everything in terms of safety when passing. A/B lobby did not have this luxury. Instead a driver who have been backpacked by teammates was drifting through raidillon like it was ESDA. Again I want to emphasise the focus on consistency; C lobby drivers are very likely to be consistently slower on average, but that consistency is what makes the passing of a GT clean and predictable, when you have such a varying degree of skill like we had in A lot by it makes it awful to predict what certain drivers are going to do. Plenty of times I went off line to attempt and overtake as I should and the GT car in question piloted by a driver who was nowhere near anyone else jumped off line like I was royalty and actually almost ended up making me collide because they weren’t sticking to their original line, other times said GT car completely ignored the fact I was approaching when just 10 minutes before had tried to jump out of the way and block me instead.

The comparison to real life you made has very little relevance because no one really suffers if they get wrecked in these races. The slowest drivers in real life make themselves completely predictable otherwise they risk an accident that could kill them. Also if a team doesn’t qualify in real life it makes their job harder because they still have to race the same people, the rules in this series, prohibit that if they’re a front running team because they will always be in C lobby and have no competition whatsoever, which whatever way you look at it is an advantage due to the comfort zone they have in that lobby. You make the point about not being able to credit a team that doesn’t do two qualify laps, which I agree is completely true. but that same said team won the first event. Perhaps a rule where a team on the podium from the previous race cannot be anywhere other than A lobby could be a possibility, but that could be a subjective view that others disagree with. But I could pose the reverse argument, let’s say Driver A and Driver B qualify a car and get into A lobby, but have Driver C in the car, who didn’t partake in qualifying at all, and is C lobby in ability in A lobby  for 2 stints, under what grounds does that driver deserve to be credited with a place in A lobby when his two teammates are the ones who put that car there in the first place? All I see is an unnecessary hazard in a lobby full of the best drivers.

The way it is; the least populated lobby with the lowest amount of direct competition to you is the best lobby to be in, making qualifying essentially pointless. So for the next rounds roadrunner and I are going to be deciding whether we’re going to be qualifying or not, which is atrocious really on a sporting level, but if that’s what it requires to get new rules then so be it. Every race from now on to be won from C lobby.  If we want to win then that’s what we have to consider, because in both of our opinion’s it’s a much easier route to take.

I want to make this clear that this is not just a rant because I lost the race from pole, because in all likelihood we would’ve lost had we been in the same lobby as the winning team too. I am just simply pointing out features of this series that in my opinion have systematical flaws regarding overall fairness competition.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Jan Filip S on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 18:57

Lobby C seems way more aware of trafic than you might think! No one here hesitate to lift off to let the faster prototype through. We have here planty of good drivers, medicore drivers and not experience drivers however majority of them drive very carefully. I mentioned it before that single party chat in lower lobbies are not necessary.
In my humble opinion issues on track are caused mostly by P drivers who can not wait for a clear opportunity to overtake. Then this "unpredictable driving" argument pops out for excuse. In real life Pro drivers also face Am drivers and their "unpredictable driving". Just stay cool till you have clear opportuninty to overtake.

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 19:25

Jan Filip S wrote:Lobby C seems way more aware of trafic than you might think! No one here hesitate to lift off to let the faster prototype through. We have here planty of good drivers, medicore drivers and not experience drivers however majority of them drive very carefully. I mentioned it before that single party chat in lower lobbies are not necessary.
In my humble opinion issues on track are caused mostly by P drivers who can not wait for a clear opportunity to overtake. Then this "unpredictable driving" argument pops out for excuse. In real life Pro drivers also face Am drivers and their "unpredictable driving". Just stay cool till you have clear opportuninty to overtake.

This doesn't really make sense. GT drivers are encouraged to hold their line, and that is all they are required to do; any action past this is unexpected to a fast approaching proto driver. When a proto driver is fast approaching knowing that the GT driver is not obligated to move over, the proto driver can only assume they won't, so these moves some GT drivers make to "let the faster prototype through" is impossible to predict from the proto driver. When you have half of a GT field holding their line when a proto is approaching and the other half changing it, confusion ensues for the proto driver. This effect is amplified as the pace delta between the two classes increases, which is why this is a bigger issue in TEC than in ASCC. If GT drivers were required to yield, one could make a case that letting the proto by is predictable... but they aren't required to yield so the most predictable thing they can do while the proto is behind them is hold their line.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Jan Filip S on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 20:20

Dude are you GT driver? P drivers apporach, bomb you at the corrner and I bet you hold a line. Take a look at imsa or wec. P drivers while overtaking at corrner they force you out of racing line due to superior breaking. Then you lift off to let them through as if you hold a line during the overtake you would kill them. You hold a line to be predictible however you have to give up if the overtaking is in progress.

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 23:13

Jan Filip S wrote:Dude are you GT driver? P drivers apporach, bomb you at the corrner and I bet you hold a line. Take a look at imsa or wec. P drivers while overtaking at corrner they force you out of racing line due to superior breaking. Then you lift off to let them through as if you hold a line during the overtake you would kill them. You hold a line to be predictible however you have to give up if the overtaking is in progress.

when did I ever say anything about whether Proto drivers are as patient as they should be when passing? (I didn't). The purpose of my statement was solely to point out how it makes no sense for it to be considered predictable for GT drivers to move off their line when Protos are approaching. Reread what I said before you assume my opinions of the patience of Proto drivers (which I never commented on).
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 23:21

Jan Filip S wrote:Dude are you GT driver? P drivers apporach, bomb you at the corrner and I bet you hold a line. Take a look at imsa or wec. P drivers while overtaking at corrner they force you out of racing line due to superior breaking. Then you lift off to let them through as if you hold a line during the overtake you would kill them. You hold a line to be predictible however you have to give up if the overtaking is in progress.

also, if you reread my post you'll realize I was talking about the line GT cars should take when the proto is behind them ("approaching"), not side by side w the GT car. if a GT driver changes their line to avoid crashing w the proto after they are already side by side, this makes perfect sense. once the cars are side by side it should be treated as a normal overtake (don't impede on the other drivers' line). But the reason proto drivers call GT drivers unpredictable is because half of them move off of the line (while the proto is behind them) while half of them don't. The proto driver doesn't know how to safely get inside or outside of the GT driver in the first place due to the inconsistencies of how the GT field reacts to an approaching prototype.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Mon 17 Sep 2018 - 23:24




"the most predictable thing they can do while the proto is behind them is hold their line."
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Mr Driv3 on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 0:01

It's the overtaking car's job to do the maneuver safely as possible. This means that while the GT's job is to be as predictable as possible it is still up the to P class car to get around them safely. As a P class driver, you (generally, not you personally) should be looking out for any unpredictable behaviour from GT drivers and seeing where you can possibly overtake them cleanly. It's a secondary target to get around them quickly. If a GT driver is acting unpredictable then you need to maybe wait behind them until after the corner or wait for a wider piece of track if they are hogging the road.

Yeah, GT cars should always be predictable but they're not. This isn't a professional racing circuit, we are all here because we enjoy it. Means that some drivers are less experienced and won't always do what they should. Again, this comes back to being more aware and being more experienced in the faster car.

In short, if you choose the faster car, you should be more experienced and be looking out for these things on the track and dealing with them there instead of complaining about them on the forums.







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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 0:06

Mr Driv3 wrote:It's the overtaking car's job to do the maneuver safely as possible. This means that while the GT's job is to be as predictable as possible it is still up the to P class car to get around them safely. As a P class driver, you (generally, not you personally) should be looking out for any unpredictable behaviour from GT drivers and seeing where you can possibly overtake them cleanly. It's a secondary target to get around them quickly. If a GT driver is acting unpredictable then you need to maybe wait behind them until after the corner or wait for a wider piece of track if they are hogging the road.

Yeah, GT cars should always be predictable but they're not. This isn't a professional racing circuit, we are all here because we enjoy it. Means that some drivers are less experienced and won't always do what they should. Again, this comes back to being more aware and being more experienced in the faster car.

In short, if you choose the faster car, you should be more experienced and be looking out for these things on the track and dealing with them there instead of complaining about them on the forums.

like I said, I never said proto drivers weren't too impatient. I also never said that the fault of these accidents should be placed on the GT driver. What I was saying was that it's not wrong to say that GT drivers are often unpredictable (which you just agreed with) and I explained exactly why they often are unpredictable.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Mr Driv3 on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 0:30

Yeah that's ok, those issues were raised earlier in the thread and I wanted to address them is all Smile







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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by TUS Turismo on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 0:55

Mr Driv3 wrote:Yeah that's ok, those issues were raised earlier in the thread and I wanted to address them is all Smile

👍
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Jan Filip S on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 14:30

TUS Turismo wrote:


"the most predictable thing they can do while the proto is behind them is hold their line."

OK mate. I got your point. Cheers!

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by SVR Solar on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 16:56

ermmmm, i don't really wanna start anything up, but i have some Clips from GT Cars holding there Lines and people in LMP driving them off the circuit. but hey if you apologise 2 these folks maybe they will accept it.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by LMR Harmonic on Tue 18 Sep 2018 - 17:09

Mr Driv3 wrote:If a GT driver is acting unpredictable then you need to maybe wait behind them until after the corner or wait for a wider piece of track if they are hogging the road..

From someone who does both classes...

No.
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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by BIGBEN0913 on Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 2:35

Posts in the morning people!



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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by PMC ADi on Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 7:30

Hey Guys! One question. Why the PMC Team aren´t in the standings? LMP and GT Team. Please check it Smile

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Freheliaz on Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 20:58

Shouldnt there be a separate sub section for Nurburgring?


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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by SFM Darkzer on Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 23:00

PMC ADi wrote:Hey Guys! One question. Why the PMC Team aren´t in the standings? LMP and GT Team. Please check it Smile

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Both of your cars did not participate in round 1, and did not complete sufficient distance to score points in round 2. Only teams that score points are displayed on standings.


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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Koenigsegg R on Wed 26 Sep 2018 - 19:04

FYI - Aston has a BoP change.


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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by PMC ADi on Tue 2 Oct 2018 - 13:53

Sorry Guys, but our Teams must cancel the participation in this championship. We have some internal team issues. Sorry :/

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by SFM Darkzer on Tue 2 Oct 2018 - 14:18

PMC ADi wrote:Sorry Guys, but our Teams must cancel the participation in this championship. We have some internal team issues. Sorry :/

Sorry to hear.


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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Jan Filip S on Sat 6 Oct 2018 - 5:52

I wonder what is wrong with Ferrari? No one seems interested in 458 since FM7? Any clue?

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by SFM Darkzer on Sat 6 Oct 2018 - 13:27

It's just hard to be consistent in. Wonderful car to drive!


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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by Jan Filip S on Tue 9 Oct 2018 - 17:12

SFM Darkzer wrote:It's just hard to be consistent in. Wonderful car to drive!

Even if it’s hard to be consistent with that should not be a problem for top drivers, shouldn’t it? Last year Wipperman racing won ASCC with it on FM6. Is it really that different to drive than in previous game? There are 2 cars that seem totally uninteresting for teams and I understand new Porsche situation as it is brand new car in FM7. Ferrari is here, I believe, since FM5. I am still intrigued.

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Re: TORA Endurance Championship - General Discussion

Post by LSEM The Butler on Wed 10 Oct 2018 - 14:32

Anyone got the pace for the proto at suzukua?
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